Karate Topics https://www.ingber.com/karate.html https://www.ingber.com/karate.txt [Lester Ingber] karate.txt Lester Ingber, 8th Dan Note that in karate.html all cross-references have been kept local, so you can use your local browser after downloading the HTML source of this file. Most information has been dated when entered, in the format #yyyy_mm_dd#. So, if you want to check any entry made on 16 May 1995 search on #1995_05_16# (which happens to be the earliest date entered), or to find all entries in 2009 search on #2009 , etc. The latest entry is #2009_12_01# __________________________________________________________________ Below are some edited replies to postings and e-mail. I usually have taken out any identification to specific people. The CONTENTS can be used to search on keywords. I haven't yet decided on a global organization for these various topics. CONTENTS @@Physical Studies Institute Terms @@Textbooks @@Videos @@Soft Focus, Hard Tuchus @@State of Our Knowledge @@Suggestions for Theses @@Physics of a Punch: I. Some Basic Physics @@Physics of a Punch: II. Utility of Physics Approach @@Physics of a Punch: III. Rationale for Other Training @@Dimensions of a Punch @@Importance of Rotation Dynamics @@Kicking Form Keri No Kata @@Measuring Impact @@Physics Applications @@Breathing @@Tough Training: Sport and Life @@Control in Sparring @@Conscious Sparring @@Shotokan: Translating Across Cultures @@Fluid Movement Versus One Motion? @@The "Corkscrew" Punch and Variations @@Advanced Applications of Basic Techniques @@General Throwing & Locking Techniques @@Feinting Techniques @@Open Nonlinear Stochastic Karate @@Comments on Kanku Sho @@Large Numbers of Techniques? @@Physics, Metaphysics, and PhDs @@Ki vs Science @@Focus @@Mental Correlates of Focus @@Training No-Mind @@Kata vs Combinations @@Outside- and Inside-Tension Stances @@Value of Kata @@Teaching Free Sparring @@Sparring Simplified @@Not Teaching & Morality @@Value of Teaching @@Self Defense @@Defense in Self-Defense @@Hard Training @@Personal Workouts @@Social Consciousness = Good Business @@Use of "Sensei" @@Karateists or Trekkies @@Cross-Training Martial Arts @@Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) @@Fees for Classes @@Handicapped Students @@Peer Review @@Bigotry @@Setting Grading Standards @@Grading, Including Children @@Teaching Instructors @@Critical Review in Karate @@Levels of Exams and Instructors @@Dealing With People-Problems @@Emotions, Intuitions and Stress @@Free and Easy Karate @@Attention and Karate -- My Reasons for Training @@Abilities of Aging Instructors @@Types of Instructors @@New Organizations @@E-Mail Interview @@Personalities of Karate People @@Meyers Briggs/Keirsey Temperament Test __________________________________________________________________ @@Physical Studies Institute Terms Physical Studies Institute LLC (PSI) develops projects and consults/contracts in areas of expertise documented in the ingber.com InterNet archive. Terms of use and downloading policies are discussed in the file https://www.ingber.com/ingber_terms.txt There is no charge for downloading and using codes or files in the ingber.com archive. In general, I have retained all rights such as copyrights to these codes and files, but they may be freely used by any person or group independent of affiliations, e.g., independent of academic or commercial affiliation. It is assumed that standard professional references or acknowledgments will be given when any of this material is used in other projects. For example, this is a major component of the License that comes with the ASA code. Physical Studies Institute LLC Lester __________________________________________________________________ @@Textbooks A physics analysis, of all major karate techniques, was published in %A L. Ingber %T The Karate Instructor's Handbook %I Physical Studies Institute-Institute for the Study of Attention %C Solana Beach, CA %D 1976 %O This is an OCR-scanned text-only version of this book. URL https://www.ingber.com/karate76_book.txt The 134 combinations and 16 two-person combinations in Appendix 4 are representative of over 5000 combinations I created and taught from about 1969-1985. Unfortunately, the collection was lost in one of several moves, along with many other documents. This includes the loss of multiple manuscripts, e.g., Principles of Nature, described in the Epilogue to this text, which ran quite a few hundred pages in length. On 5 Nov 2008 I added the Epilogue which I scanned from one of the few remaining texts in my possession. https://www.ingber.com/karate76_book.html permits viewing illustrations included as .jpg files. %A L. Ingber %T Karate: Kinematics and Dynamics %I Unique %C Hollywood, CA %D 1981 %O ISBN 0-86568-025-6. This is an OCR-scanned text-only version of this book. URL https://www.ingber.com/karate81_book.txt %A L. Ingber %T Elements of Advanced Karate %I Ohara %C Burbank, CA %D 1985 %O ISBN 0-89750-127-6. This is an OCR-scanned text-only version of this book. URL https://www.ingber.com/karate85_book.txt https://www.ingber.com/karate85_book.html permits viewing as a series of .jpg files. Only the 1976 and 1981 books give any detailed physics. The original ideas were first formally presented in %A L. Ingber %T Physics of karate techniques %R Instructor's Thesis %I Japan Karate Association %C Tokyo, Japan %D 1968 There are many useful parallels that can be drawn between the teaching and practice of karate and the teaching and practice of other disciplines. This was the core of an 8-year project I undertook, funding, administrating and teaching in a complete alternative school. One paper in my archive deals with how these ideas were tested in a UCSD Extension set of courses. %A L. Ingber %T Editorial: Learning to learn %J Explore %V 7 %P 5-8 %D 1972 %O URL https://www.ingber.com/smni72_learning.pdf In another paper, some of this methodology is described in karate81_attention.pdf (a link to smni81_attention.pdf). %A L. Ingber %T Attention, physics and teaching %J Journal Social Biological Structures %V 4 %P 225-235 %D 1981 %O URL https://www.ingber.com/smni81_attention.pdf Appendix 5 of my 1976 karate book contains 6 representative karate problems along the lines of over 2000 problems created by myself and other teachers, as described in karate81_attention.pdf. These too were lost in one of several moves. The 1981 and 1985 books are out of print, and the publishers do not have any copies in their inventories. Similarly, I do not have enough 1976 books left to offer any for sale. I have placed OCR-scanned text of the 1976, 1981 and 1985 books in my archive. (Permissions to do this for all books were given by the publishers.) Note that the 1985 book relies very much on photos to convey its messages. #1996_04_07# Re understanding the physics of karate, and teaching along such an approach: I feel, given my experience, that this methodology is so natural that the exercises (formulas not essential -- I taught this to 5-yr old's as well as to top fighters!) are readily assimilated, and cuts down the time to creative movement by several years. However, this is not a lecture approach. I often have had the dubious honor of being called the hardest instructor by my own instructors, peers, and students. I have no mercy when it comes to demanding hard workouts. Lester NOTE: I would like to see the combinations in Appendix 4 of the 1976 book proofed and corrected. There are some combinations I have already corrected in the text now in my archive, which can be used as a guide. I suggest using some ASCII code for the arrows. For example, >N >NE >E >SE >S >SW >W >NW I would like prefer to have the updates in "diff" form, so I can just patch the current versions, but even ASCII is OK as long as I can just replace the current sections with revised text. Acknowledgments for completed projects will be placed in the book file. I have to admit that all this work would be unnecessary if I had not lost a computer tape containing files for all three karate books (and my wife's book Ballet: The Art Defined and another book Tennis Dynamics) circa 1986 during a move. No need to kick me; I do that often enough. I just wish I had the time to do all these corrections myself, but this is turning out to be a healthy rewarding project. Thanks. Lester __________________________________________________________________ @@Videos #2009_05_09# Here are VHS converted tapes of a karate camp with five 1st Dan Black Belt students in the Summer of 1982, emphasizing sparring exercises which were eventually published in Elements of Advanced Karate, https://www.ingber.com/karate85_book.html. To make these files reasonable size they were converted to 320x240. (The files still are quite large at about 200MB each.) The sound is quite a bit out of sync with the video a lot of the time due to the device used to capture the VHS recording. The sequence of files below follows the order of training sessions, each about 1.5 hours, in this special camp. These videos can be downloaded from my archive, where they have been conveniently cut into playable parts less than 50 MBytes each: karate82_exam.mpg karate82_Earth.mpg karate82_Wind.mpg karate82_Fire.mpg karate82_Water.mpg karate82_Void.mpg These videos also can be viewed on my youtube account, where they have been cut into playable parts less than 14 minutes each. https://www.youtube.com/user/ingber#p/p __________________________________________________________________ @@Soft Focus, Hard Tuchus #2020_12_25# I had often proposed the concept of "soft focus, hard 'tuchus'" prior to 1976, but I believe that the first published mention of that concept was in my 1976 book https://www.ingber.com/karate76_book.html This concept relates to reflecting on the necessity of complementing a diffuse visual field with a feeling of (somatic) centering, both when doing karate and physics problems. Here I discuss how this affects control of proper breathing. The issue is that the lower abdomen, e.g., the psoas (the primary hip flexor, assisted by the iliacus) is typically kept with some tension to have the hip area as a central control of karate techniques. However, the upper abdomen, e.g, the diaphragm, should control breathing. Not only should the chest not be expanded or contract to control air in and out of the lungs, but this would provide valuable information to an opponent. For example, a professional singer very well understands and trains to control breathing using the diaphragm. (My wife was a professional singer as well as a professional ballet dancer and I have checked out this information with her!) Without proper training, it is difficult for most people to separate control of these muscle groups in the lower and upper abdomen. For example, this can be highlighted by kicking a heavy bag, which should keep the arms quite relaxed during the entire technique. In fact, such exercises can be used for feedback to train proper "hip" control while still maintaining proper breathing control. I believe that for most people, this issue is a major part of the mental problems they have, at least when doing karate techniques, in maintaining "soft focus, hard 'tuchus'". __________________________________________________________________ @@State of Our Knowledge #2000_02_17# I think there is an enormous lack of (A) knowledge of karate as well as in (B) teaching karate. (A) You and I might agree on several underlying basic physical principles underlying karate techniques, but you only have to read and listen to so many other different opinions and poor descriptions of these techniques to realize that there is no such agreement of what constitutes these physical principles among the mass of instructors (not trainers). This implies that either (a) the problem reduces to better presentation at several levels appropriate to the different backgrounds of many instructors, or (b) you take a more humble approach and admit that there is insufficient testing of these principles to satisfy any reasonable "scientific" certainly of their validity. In either case, (a) or (b), the appeal to have instructors at least codify by writing or videotaping their own insightful explanations is an important and still missing element to document the body of knowledge you claim exists, to be put forward for concrete objective critical review. (B) There hardly is any clear understanding of how to best teach people from many different backgrounds, in just about every discipline, much less karate. It is much harder to work with many people who are not obviously a priori so talented that they would gain high creative levels in a given discipline no matter what instructor they have, than being a coach to a few top athletes. This is an area of research that similarly demands more concrete documentation and input, if for no other reason that to grow data that can be used by future critical analyses. In this context, I think classification of phenomena many times is too far from understanding the nature of these phenomena, to the extent that one wants to do more than just achieve crude statistical reproducibility (e.g., assuming "bell-shaped" curves, etc.). For example, some mathematicians (those perhaps too removed from physical realities) have been content to claim that a very general understanding of the world is achieved as soon as we understand that most physics can be encapsulated by generic second-order differential equations. This missing the point of what it takes to understand most phenomena, e.g., to the extent you can demonstrate that your knowledge is sufficient to use the basic equations to the extent it can be applied -- building a ship, radio or TV or transistor, etc. To be more specific and to the point, just classifying karate techniques typically is insufficient to train most student to learn to perform decent techniques or kata, to utilize these techniques with proper timing to achieve success in sparring, etc. This may not mean that these classifications are wrong, albeit they probably miss some essential features, or that they are not useful, albeit I would be suspicious if they did not lead to some tangible tools for actual combat, etc. It's easy to say in hindsight that one must know one's enemy and oneself, etc., but more critical analyses of combat does not bend itself to the classifications you cite (criticize?). For example, even a postmortem analysis of a tank battle (filtering a lot of nuances through steel and explosives should make this analysis of combat simple?) is terribly difficult and often subjective even among experienced officers. Just claiming a technique is a feint is light years away from being able to demonstrate the nuances of such a technique to the extent you can regularly teach feints to most students. Lester __________________________________________________________________ @@Suggestions for Theses This is a good place to record some suggestions for future theses. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ #2007_09_06# XXX: > Mr. Ingber, I would like to ask for your advice on what would be a > interesting thesis for karate, i.e. subject, content in general lines. I > would appreciate very much your ideas. > > Thank you. > > XXX XXX: Hi. I guess there are lots of open topics. An interesting thesis that could benefit from and interest people in other physical disciplines might be some statistical correlation of (speed of acquisition?) of rank with how students cope with at least several stress events over a few years in and out of the dojo -- e.g., even a history from interviews might be OK. You might have to set up some kind of 1-10 scales to measure adversity (e.g., the personal perception of such adversity) of events, etc. The idea is to be able to draw some conclusions about the importance of motivation and perseverance to triumph over adversity/stress. I this kind of analysis would be more beneficial to most students, rather than peppering them with glorious anecdotal stories of how a few individuals triumphed over their adversities. I would like to see some reasonable analysis of how popular (TV and events) "cage fighting" is helping or hindering the martial arts, e.g., specifically karate. In (my) theory, eventually this should prove a good statistical testing ground for techniques and various Arts, and better training for true martial arts (not so much sport arts) should be developed. However, public displays of "reality," driven by commercial success, can have a way of poisoning any well or art, and so it would be interesting to try to follow a few students in several dojos, with a subset of some of whom participate in cage fighting, over 2-3 years, to see if anything interesting can be ascertained. Another topic might be to try to analyze if and how rigorous training in basic skills (like "old school" was for me and others), like stance, rigorous training of punching and kicking dynamics, etc., contributes (statistically, over many individuals), if at all, to advanced sparring capabilities (say at sandan and above). I mean this in a rigorous technical sense: take video and analyze movements of such sparring, correlated to degree of rigorous training (that might be graded according to kata performance?), to see any influences of that training in sparring, e.g, which can be somewhat separate from timing and fighting mentality, etc. Lester __________________________________________________________________ @@Physics of a Punch: I. Some Basic Physics #2003_01_01# I think the posters are basically correct. I have stated in my karate.html notes, and i still believe, that the "pulling hand" is a useful tool especially for pre-(2nd or so)Dan students to aid large-torso initiation of techniques, by "pre-initiating" reaction forces to the torso. For example, if a "direct connection" under the arm (along the ribs and back, etc.) is maintained, the pulling hand can help to turn the hip in the same direction -- this is obvious if you pull a heavy object. If a reverse-rotation connection is maintained, this is similar to walking wherein the arm takes up reaction forces from a slightly rotating torso. If this connection is maintained, then the pulling hand can be used to "reverse" the flow of such forces, and act on the torso to help initiate powerful techniques. For most people, the pulling hand is a convenient device until they can truly feel and initiate powerful motions directly from the torso. A rough approximation to the time when someone can do this is when they can body-feint effectively, i.e., broadcasting false moves as well as not broadcasting large techniques by such auxiliary movements. Lester ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ #2000_03_25# Just to put the discussion below, a couple of years ago on physics of karate techniques, in perspective, I have added the following. Maximum power is not always the goal of every karate technique. Well-rounded training includes smooth linear and circular body-shifting, sweep-block defense blocks, eye and groin and throat attacks, superb feints, good timing to flow with or against an opponent(s), etc. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Subject: Re: physics of a punch? Reply-To: ingber@caa.caltech.edu There are two basic kinds of techniques, thrusting and striking, used for both hand and foot techniques, and you have roughly described both. The thrusting techniques rely on a "compromise" In the initial phase of the technique, speed is generated by "spinning" the arm or leg (transferring momentum) off the torso, sometimes the torso off the stance (usually using the legs against the massive floor) as when the body is shifting. A heavy mass (making the body rigid) is locked behind this projectile in the late stages, causing some slowing down of course. (An alternative is to use torques from the floor to rotate the torso, etc.) There is a short time duration, during the "focus" of the technique, while in contact with the target, that an optimal momentum can be transferred. This is "ideal" for impact against targets the same approximate mass as the final projectile. With some experience (usually 7-10 years), the amount of mass locked behind the projectile can be somewhat optimally matched to the target, maximizing momentum transfer. The striking techniques transfer momentum from large masses (stance against the floor, torso, upper arm or leg, etc.) to smaller masses like the fist or foot, in a whip-like sequence, getting a very fast moving projectile that is not very massive (not being locked onto the heavier body parts like the torso, as performed with the thrusting techniques). This is generally used against hard heavier surfaces to generate shock waves in the target. There is an "intermediate" kind of strike, strike-lock techniques, whereby the projectile is locked rigid to the torso during the focus on impact, which is useful for some heavier targets; this is used quite often in blocking techniques which usually are delivered at right angles to attacking projectiles and therefore typically do not require much massive momentum to deflect. Lester __________________________________________________________________ @@Physics of a Punch: II. Utility of Physics Approach Subject: Re: physics of a punch? Reply-To: ingber@caa.caltech.edu Physics certainly has much to offer in the examination of body movement, as evidenced by its influence in changing the coaching/instruction many body activities. Much of karate is still taught in "guru" style that inhibits questioning and advancement of the art. I certainly agree with your previous posting that there is no substitute for rigorous training in the fundamentals of karate -- no different than in any bona fide activity. Yes, an understanding of karate in terms of the physics of motions _plus_ hard training offers a superior training to just hard training. Given that it typically takes 7-10 years to become "creative" in sparring (e.g, "speaking" in paragraphs or combinations of techniques in sparring, instead of just simple reactions), the role of any good instructor is to seek ways to help more students get "creative" in a shorter time. It helps an instructor as well as his/her students to train more effectively if they can understand what they are doing in more than one rote approach. I don't plan on stepping on any toes by comparing one school to another, but suffice it to say that the JKA places great emphasis on having instructors advance from level to level by producing quasi-rigorous theses on quasi-original topics -- just like theses in other disciplines. They are fair game to their share of blame and are open to attack for the political mess karate is in, e.g., in contrast to the way the Kodokan is run, but that's another matter. One of the strengths of the JKA is such peer review, that is quite absent in some other schools, and students are at the mercy (often without realizing it) of accepting by rote what a teacher instructs, because there is no objective methodology to examine some training issues. Science definitely helps here. Why have most schools like JKA periodically altered the Kata, the Kihon, the Kumite training? It's because such masters as you cite were not perfect, as you would have us believe. I'm all for conservative institutions, not necessarily to belong to them, but to have a governing body decide on changes in such methodology. You can't run any discipline by changing at the whim of every novice, but you have to set some standards. If you run a religion, then you accept the preaching of (sometimes) ancient prophets. If you run a dojo, then you should be responsible to your peers and governing body of your affiliation. When you are recognized as a Sensei, and have paid your "dues," then it is your turn to add insight into this governing body. At least in JKA, it is recognized that physics can aid the teaching of many of the basic body techniques, certainly not all the aspects of karate. This does not mean everyone attends physics classes (my students never had a moment to doubt that they were training as hard as they could while taking my classes). This also does not mean that every JKA instructor is a physicist, or even understands this particular aspect of karate techniques. Lester ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ #1997_06_05# In reply to: :You *can* learn karate from a book. It's just a question of how you :go about it. Most people with zero self-discipline can't imagine how :it could be possible, but those of us who self-teach computer :engineering, foreign lingos, and JKA karate know that it is quite :possible, and nothing to be sniffed at. Yes, of course you're right. Furthermore, people at any level can learn much from the written word even in karate, provided of course there is some flesh and blood follow-up. For example, my 1969 third Dan certificate is signed by Shuji Masutani (President JKA), and Masatoshi Nakayama (Chief Instructor). I had briefly met these men after they had read my Instructor reports, and they gave me very nice feedback with enough detail I could tell they had read and thought about what I said. That certainly made me appreciate their signatures even more. Lester __________________________________________________________________ @@Physics of a Punch: III. Rationale for Other Training Subject: Re: physics of a punch? Reply-To: ingber@caa.caltech.edu While this newsgroup seems generally focused on issues other than these, I'm glad to see there is some interest in these subjects. I'm also glad to hear of the methodology you have adapted in your classes. I required written and physical tests at each level. Before too many joints get out of line, let me state that most people did quite awful initially in their written exams. However, the important point to make is that by the time black belt exams were taken, all people who had trained regularly really did perform better than most other Kyu students, even those without high school education and language impediments. Just as the body can be taught to move, so can the mind. What has mind got to do with body? Well, of course there are the standard citations from Bushido, etc. However, this can be more practical for many people. To give an example of how approaching a subject from many angles can offer more alternatives to people with different learning strengths, a large part of the physical training I gave not only included Kihon, Kata and Kumite, but also Combinations. Learning at first to perform 8-12 step Combinations, composed of 2-4 sub-patterns, and later to perform 2-person Combinations (sometimes 3/4-person Combinations) -- being aware of your patterns as well as your opponents, also was difficult for most at first, even visiting black belts from other schools. However, just as they learned to perform in their written exams, so students (ages 5-70) also learned to perform their Combinations. Dan exams required people to perform new Combinations made up on the spot by more advanced black belts. Higher level black belts had to submit (small) written theses and to compose and perform their own finely-tuned Combinations. It can be surprising how much body technique improves by adding this additional discipline. Once people can learn to become their own critics, many of them can be as ruthless for detail and perfection as their instructors. Also, the ideas they try out in writing, first appearing slowly in their minds as they struggle to get them on paper, begin to flow more creatively and spontaneously with practice, just like their physical techniques. Such abilities can be quite important in sparring. The result of all this, I believe, was that my students shaved 2-3 years off the usual 7-10 years normally required to achieve "fluency" in sparring with patterns. I regard sparring as an essential test of any "ideas" in karate, even though I believe that much more is taught in any good school. On this later subject, of a "full" education, I likely have a number of disagreements with many people. I do not think much is proved by calling on the names of great Samurai. That era illustrated, to me, that while people can be greatly disciplined -- as they most certainly were under their Lords, they also were not very self-disciplined when their Feudal system broke apart. There are many parallels in today's society as well. I think is proper and important to instill self-discipline, not just rote discipline. Also, I think there is a clear line between training students to perfect character versus teaching morality. While this is quite difficult to bear, it really is line with the ideas of the developers of many martial arts who stated that the ultimate goal of karate should be the "perfection of character." In practice, I believe, this means giving people (sometimes "extracting" it from them :>)!) the physical and mental tools to develop their own confidence and wisdom to determine their own morality. True, there are many many "bad" people that start karate, but really very few of them retain their initial rotten attitudes after many years of training; I realize that a lot of rotten attitudes persist even through the ranks of instructor level, but we must accept the statistics of what can be realistically accomplished. Lester __________________________________________________________________ @@Dimensions of a Punch #2010_07_06# Re: Snapping Punch : XXX: ... however there is no snapping punch , but pushing punch : - which punch is more effective in your opinion and why? A lot depends on the target, similar to what I mentioned before re striking. I do not think the term "snapping" punch makes much sense. This is probably (a) a punch with a focus close to the surface of the target, whereas (b) other punches might focus deeper in the target. Punch (a) against a hard target represents a sharp impact, typically with shorter duration of focus/transfer of momentum than (b). With (b) you have to take into account the difference in velocity of the punch on the trajectory during focus. #2010_07_10# An attack should "match" the target. Consider hitting a small light hanging punching bag versus hitting a floor-based heavy bag. You want to focus at different depths into the target. When attacking hard objects, the goal typically is to have a sharp focus just deep enough to create a strong enough pressure wave to damage/break bone -- momentum transfer considerations apply. When attacking soft meat, the goal typically is to deposit enough energy during focus to impair/tear tissue -- energy transfer considerations apply. This means adapting the focus depth, time of focus, and trade-off of mass and speed in the attacking object. See my description in my karate books on the trade-offs of mass and speed during focus. Lester ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ #2001_12_19# Subject: Re: information about kizami tsuki- gyku tsuki combination You have to account for the difference in emphasis between basic vs sparring contexts, and some instructors do not make this clear enough though they may be performing their techniques exceptionally well (but differently) in these contexts. In "basics" the idea is to align bone as much as possible to lay a foundation for more complex tensions created by musculature, to help teach the correct tensions, etc. In "sparring" one must study techniques in their contexts as members of combinations, and so one must explore possible variations from "basics" with respect to the beginnings and ends of techniques, etc. OK. I' ve given everyone a nice excuse :>). I assume we're talking about a "short punch" followed by a "counter punch" all in front stance, using direct rotation on the punching arms. To get maximum rotation force, tensions should flow across both legs through the hip during the entire combination. Concerning production of the hip rotation per se, the back leg need not be straightened if the puncher can control tensions around the leg-line, rotating one way then the other. Some people may find it easier to develop these circular tensions by not having the back leg completely straight. I see no reason to completely "relax" the back leg at all during this combination, in that some primary (not the circular) tensions should flow through the hip at all times. Now, some instructors reasonably train to add some additional linear hip momentum into the punches, in addition to the circular rotation forces. Then, the first short punch might even be done by driving a bit into the front leg, bending the front knee more acutely during that punch. The next reverse punch could even drive off the back leg, permitting the front foot to slide a bit under the previously acutely bent knee. Obviously, depending on various factors like the distance form the target, there are multiple alternatives that can be practiced. I recommend using this doublet technique within various combinations that stress different contexts, e.g., distance, face versus stomach attacks (different momenta transfers required), etc. Lester : Hello Prof. Ingber : : my name is XXX I am a second year sport sciences : university student in London but first of all a ISKF shodan. I would : like to know what you think about my dilemma: : : In dynamic Karate (master Nakayama) and in another relevant Italian : publication by Sensei Shirai is written that in the combination above : cited the kizami tsuki is performed pushing the rear leg and : straighten it, then the leg relaxed and then straighten again in : performing the reverse punch. : : In a very good video (EB productions), video invaluable for the : information provided and the ability of the instructors in the : same combination in doing kizami the leg is bent and it is straighten : only in doing gyaku tsuki. I Tried both and I think the Shirai and : Nakayama's kizami is strong. : : what do you think? : : regards : : XXX ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ #2001_07_26# XXX: Hi. I agree that it is unfortunate that Nishiyama started publishing some questionable analyses some years ago. Leaders in many disciplines have learned to value analysts that have at least demonstrated both some empirical mastery of their discipline as well as other complementary analytic disciplines. To be fair, however, I have seen leaders in military, business, medicine, and specific academic fields, use quite poor judgment in picking poor analysts and/or in not heeding the advice of their analysts. Let's examine the specific issue. Nishiyama's explanation clearly is incorrect, and I won't even attempt to salvage that error. However, I know for sure that he is a smart man and that he very well understands body technique. So, perhaps he is trying to describe some aspect of physical movement most low-level black belts do not seem to appreciate? In this case, I think this is true. My take and experience on this is that body timing is an essential aspect of transferring maximum momentum to a target on impact. For example, using a simple thrust technique like a punch to the head versus to the body calls for different body timing. I see no reason to doubt that the basic mechanics of transfer of momentum between objects of different masses is not at least an important zeroth order issue here. I.e., between simple marbles, maximal transfer takes place when the projectile and target masses are equal. In addition, the depth of focus into the target clearly is an issue, as to the body timing to put mass behind the appropriate technique; i.e., focusing on delivering shock to a bone versus tearing into meat calls for different kinds of focus of the projectile. Both you and I, and probably many others by now, have dealt in more detail in the above issues I've just stated here. My point is that I certainly also can feel Nishiyama's "feeling" within one's own body when sloppy technique is performed. There is no transfer of momentum across the joints and a lot of power never makes it to the projectile. Similarly, if you are not connected strongly across joints you definitely will suffer some consequences: Just punch a very heavy object, like a tree, with a loose shoulder, and you feel the reaction force in your shoulder. Just punch a very heavy object, like a tree, with a loose torso, and you feel the reaction force in your belly. Just punch a very heavy object, like a tree, with a loose stance leg, and you feel the reaction force in your leg. Just punch a very heavy object, like a tree, with a loose ankle, and you feel the reaction force in your ankle. I hope no doubts these facts, as they are self-evident. The issue is really one of propagating momentum across joints into a projectile, and then properly tensing across muscle mass and joints, e.g., ideally in smooth arcs of tension, to be able to withstand reaction forces, especially against a heavy target. If this sounds too simple, then I suggest it is simple enough to see how someone can misconstrue these feelings as "shock" in the technical sense. BTW, are we clear on what "shock" is in a technical sense? Shock typically is caused by a pressure wave deposited in a medium in a very short time; if it travels along grain or impurities, it can cause breakage. Pressure is Force/Area. Force in the above context is the change in momentum at impact during focus. Now, if we can easily "jar" our own bodies by inefficiently using body techniques, and we can feel such "slop" in various parts of our body, then why can't a layperson simply refer to this as "shock"? (I do not consider a recognized teacher of a physical discipline a "layperson.") Or, are we getting too picky on some technical language and missing a bigger picture relevant to karate? Again, I do not defend poor analysis. I also do not defend poor judgment. Lester : Date: Sun Jul 1, 2001 11:34 pm : Subject: Re: Power Punching : : > > :-) There was an article in The Shotokan Magazine some time back : about : > punching that made me cancel my subscription. In it the author : quoted : > from one of Nishiyama's books, in which Mr N talked about "shock" : > travelling down the body from a punch, and bouncing off the floor : back : > up the body into the target. This struck me as just silly, so I : showed : > this to my brother-in-law (a mech. engineer who designs jets) and he : > just laughed. Mr N is probably a very good karateka, but I would : take : > any of his physics with a pinch of salt. : : Most, if not all of what Mr Nishiyama ever knew about : physics (at least the correct part) was through his former : student, Mr Lester Ingber, who is a member of this list. : Too bad Mr N doesn't check his physics with those who : understand it, before making claims like these... : : There may be something to be said for this "shock" that : "travels down to the floor and back again." Anyone on : this list have a scientific explanation that can validate : these claims? For those unfamiliar with this idea, it : is the concept of creating a stable technique through a : stable stance. (That part is fine) The idea is that upon : impact, a shock wave travels back through the body of the : attacker, into the ground through the back foot, returning : again to the point of contact with the defender. Does this : seem logical? If there is, in fact, a "shock wave" moving : around the body, how does it actually work? : : XXX ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ #2000_03_23# Well, I think I understand what both XX1 and XX2 are saying. XX2's statement of what should constitute proper analysis of any claims of unusual techniques is of course correct -- hell, that should be where such a group as this should bring their domains of expertise. I have seen close-up a remarkable demonstration by Okazaki where he performed multiple punches within a second to be sure, against I believe XX3. I personally have not witnessed such rapid execution of excellent body dynamics since then, probably circa before 1968. The body dynamics were smooth, powerful and focussed. However, the punches were more like strike-snap techniques, in that there was a definite trade-off for speed in favor of mass at focus. The momentum being generated by his body transferred to his punching hand, mass x velocity (speed), was definitely that of a well-trained karate expert. Inasmuch as any such strike-snap technique has the potential to inflict damage, I would unequivocally state that any of his rapid-fire punches could inflict damage, though not necessarily the same damage as a punch focussed within the opponent's body. A "standard" punch, if actually focussed in the opponent's body, of course will transfer momentum (and energy) into the target, making it rather difficult to impossible to repeatedly quickly muster up energy for repeated techniques, to deliver multiple such punches within a second. When I was at my prime, my body-hand techniques were especially strong and fast, and I did have experiences of delivering 2-3 multiple *full* punches into actual targets within a second -- not the level of speed I witnessed in Okazaki, but also differently focussed techniques. That is, strike-snap techniques (not really the punches under discussion -- I'll get to that), are whip-like techniques that clearly cause most damage against relatively light-mass and hard targets like the head, where light-mass projectiles can maximally transfer momentum which can set up shock in bones (high pressure waves measure by large forces delivered to small target areas). Now, the punches under discussion which I witnessed clearly used what I describe (now years behind the times I guess) as excellent execution of body compression-expansion, wherein excellent body timing is used upon focus of a given technique, to smoothly switch to large muscle areas with opposing contracting forces to generate new techniques (e.g., not letting the partial execution of one technique impede the flow of the next technique), using any reaction forces available from the previous technique for the next technique (e.g., what basic stance is all about), etc. So, in summary, yes, I believe that a highly trained expert can deliver multiple effective punches within one second, but those multiple punches will not be effective if they are focussed deep within a target (sapping energy). Each of the multiple punches definitely will not have the same effective momentum transfer into deep body tissues as a single "standard" focussed punch. However, the concert of punches raining on the opponent (I like that!) may well have more cumulative damage/stopping power than the single punch, but definitely depending on the targets selected. Lester ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ #2000_02_16# I think a "corkscrew" punch is useful for delivering extra "shock" on impact to harder lighter targets as you say. However, an important component of the effectiveness of the punch is its "quality." Hitting a lighter target is most effective if the the momentum of the punch trades off a lighter mass for more speed on impact. This can be contrasted with trading off a heavier mass for less speed on impact to a heavy target. The depth of "focus" here also is essential for maximum deposition of power into the target. So, I think there are several well understood dimensions to a "punch," that can be developed by specific training exercises. Form is important to most beginning students. They require a skeleton of form around which to develop the additional "dimensions" of matching their timing and body power against a moving thinking opponent. __________________________________________________________________ @@Importance of Rotation Dynamics #1997_01_24# In response to: XX1 wrote: : :....This form of "Shotokan" is confusing me, e.g. before my blocks were :all delivered with : the shoulders at 45 deg. Now I am told to keep everything square!!! I : thought I was flexible and open to suggestion, but I am having a hard time : terminating an instruction I held so close and doing the complete :opposite. : What has happened to Shotokan and is this "reluctance to change" normal : for me?? I've seen this thread continue for awhile, but I have not seen anyone explain how keeping the body square, not using "pulling hands," and avoiding similar JKA-Shotokan training devices are suitable for teaching, generating, or applying any body dynamics or special techniques. If this is just style, then I say junk it. I'd be interested in hearing some defense of these styles that makes some sense. I do not believe that any sound defense exists, but I'm open to hearing any? Lester ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ In response to: XX2 wrote: :No, it really doesn't do either. It retracts the hand in preparation for the :reverse punch, not much else. Rotating the hips in the opposite direction :from blocking (in the case of inside, and downward blocks) actually *weakens* :the block by reducing the amount of body mass involved in the motion and :preventing the transfer of momentum along the joints. : :In the upper level rising block, the hip rotation has no effect one way or the :other, since the blocking action is upward and the hips are moving latterly. : :In the outside block, the hips moving in the same direction of the block :increases the strength of the block due to the increase in mass of the :mechanism moving. I don't agree. For most people, e.g., lower than say 2nd dan, the use of the pulling hand is essential to maximize instigation and synchronization of large torso muscle groups that then effect the technique, i.e., the block in this case. While maximum power for each technique is not the only issue in sparring, it certainly is for basics. Reverse-rotation and direct-rotation dynamics execute quite different effects on arms and legs for techniques, and proper training should include both kinds of dynamics. How the main center of the hips are moving is not the crucial issue in deciding whether one can perform direct-rotation or reverse-rotation techniques. Just about any circumstance in just about any stance (or during accelerations which have definitive forces reaction forces in play) and can generate and use either kind of rotation dynamics independent of the main line of shifting, e.g., by using auxiliary tensions. (It certainly usually makes sense to use one method over another, but here I am just addressing the issue of what can be performed.) I consider the above points to be an essential part of Shotokan, most certainly JKA-Shotokan, training. :What does this mean to us? :The motion does not aid in evading an attack, either, unless the attack was :specifically aimed at your rear-leg hip while your hips were facing forward. :You'll notice that we usually spar from the side facing position, again to aid :the punch, so the hip rotation is not taught with the intent of creating an :evasion technique. Well, it is of course true that any specific hip dynamics is not taught with intentions of advanced use such as feinting, but the ability to feint intended techniques with a complete arsenal of such dynamics is definitely an asset. :You'll also notice if you look in a mirror that your body is not going :anywhere. The front leg side stays where it is, and actually presents weaker :ribs to the attack when turned to side-facing than are presented as targets :during front-facing postures. : :In fact, from all of this, I would venture to go a little further. Hip :rotation is a weakness in Shotokan in that it compromises many aspects of our :karate in order to do only one thing with crushing force: punch. Not true at all. You have to consider its use in generating power, in transitions between techniques, its partial use to generate effective power in combinations (not requiring complete overt turning, etc.), etc. Lester ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ In response to: XX3 wrote: :$ I've seen this thread continue for awhile, but I have not seen anyone :$ explain how keeping the body square, not using "pulling hands," and :$ avoiding similar JKA-Shotokan training devices are suitable for :$ teaching, generating, or applying any body dynamics or special :$ techniques. : :Lester - : :This is my understanding. Returning Hand was always a part of the :Shotokai/Shotokan. :... the blocking was different in the shoulders. The older Shotokai believed :that by turning the hip into the block that it was much more effective and :consistent with their one technique ends all belief (even in the case of a :block), this put the shoulders at a front facing position. I don't know if :Mr. XX4 and SKA still hold to this but that might be where it was seen. :The JKA on the other hand didn't focus as much on finishing the opponent :with the block as setting him up. I just posted a contrary reply to XX2's posting on this thread that I will not repeat here, but I think it is relevant re some of the details of the importance of rotation dynamics. I think "returning hand" is a bit misleading (and "pulling hand" probably is not so hot either), in the context that most often this hand is used to start large muscle activity that then generates other techniques (all this takes place within a tenth of a second or so), while "returning" implies some post actions. When I trained with XX4 (before Nishiyama came to the US), he did stress rotation dynamics. To my the best of my memory (which has a large error with respect to this issue at that time), I do not think he stressed reverse-rotation. I do recall well that he did not break down the dynamics as well as other JKA instructors at that time. In fact, the clearly superior teaching techniques of body dynamics by JKA instructors was a prime force in my decision as captain of the Caltech club at that time to have Nishiyama stay as instructor there, as I felt it would be best for most students to have a well-schooled set of instructors lead the class for years to come. (After I left, other allegiances took priority in the minds of future captains.) As an aside, in the early years in the US, Nishiyama did often mention using a block as with attack purpose, but mostly did teach as you state. He did not teach sweep blocks very often or in any depth. Yaguchi was (is) quite a master of the use of sweep-blocks, and the use of these blocks in sparring really improved the timing and effectiveness of combinations in sparring for most students in later years. Lester ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ In response to: XX2 wrote: :On 23 Jan 1997 12:16:41 -0500, Lester Ingber wrote: : :>I've seen this thread continue for awhile, but I have not seen anyone :>explain how keeping the body square, not using "pulling hands," and :>avoiding similar JKA-Shotokan training devices are suitable for :>teaching, generating, or applying any body dynamics or special :>techniques. :> :>If this is just style, then I say junk it. I'd be interested in :>hearing some defense of these styles that makes some sense. I do not :>believe that any sound defense exists, but I'm open to hearing any? : :The second paragraph is clear. Rephrase the first. Do you wish to hear :defenses of Shotokan's penchant for pulling hands and such? Or, do you wish :to hear justifications for ignoring those topics? Since I do not have any political agenda to advance, I simply state my own support for rotation dynamics, which also is detailed in my texts. :The rotating hip thing I should have summarized. I'll add content here and :reduce my posting stats all in one swoop: : :The blocks and hip rotation interact in the following ways imnsho: : : * Assumptions: : 1. The hips are rotating in a front stance and the blocks are used : front leg side : 2. There is no advanced style shifting or stepping involved. : 3. Standing in place Well, OK, this is the most basic white-belt description. However advanced use, even at green belt stages, requires more flexible and more general use. :UPPER: (AGE):Not at all due to horizontal vs. vertical motion No, the generation of even an up-block quite often can be _initiated_ with the same dynamics as used to start a reverse-rotation short-punch (punching with the same hand as the leading leg) or a counter-punch (e.g., if counter-blocking to the open corner, etc.). :OUTSIDE - IN (SOTO): Complementary, increasing force, transferring more :momentum. Well, often in sparring a shortened version of an outside-block is performed, in which direct-rotation is not used primarily to transfer momentum to the block, e.g., as might be done for a punch, but rather to more rigidly attach the block to the hip, effectively executing a more massive "body block." Admittedly, I'm just being contrary and annoying here for the sake of it, just to make the point that there are many contexts that arise in sparring, and so it is good practice to practice all basic body dynamics. :INSIDE - OUT (UCHI): Not at all (reverse action may weaken the motion) Not true. Reverse-rotation is in fact used to transfer momentum, and since the timing of such techniques most often means that there is less time to "re-attach" body mass to the technique during focus (since typically the body and the arm or leg are in the beginning and middle of the technique going in opposite directions), then transfer of momentum is most vital. Even consider the second and fourth knife-hand block from back-stance in Heian 1: I think it's terrible when people teach students to rock the hips back just to try to effect some direct-rotation in these techniques; they should be using reverse-rotation. :LOWER (GEDAN): Not at all (possible weakness. This too depends on the angle of attack, but here typically the block is against a more massive punch (with the opponent's weight driving into the attack) or kick, and so any attack-block that is used, even though it s usually executed close to right angles to the attack, should be relatively massive to have some effect. So, in line what I said just above, I would agree that here reverse-rotation blocks would not be as effective. :Notice that the four basic blocks reveal so much when grouped and looked at :this way. The upper block is the only single motion block. The others :require a stack-up / fold / preparatory-action. However, if you start reverse :punching, then there *is* a stacking action required from the opposite hand in :order for the upper block to launch from the hip/cocked position rather than :simply shooting upward. I don't agree with this categorization. I think what I have said here and in my just-previous postings at least give my rationale for my disagreements. :Notice that when stepping forward, the hip "rotation" actually moves the front :leg hip *forward*, still not in the direction of any of the blocks. This may :eliminate the useful effect it has in outside-in blocking (soto ude uke). Generally, the rotation hip dynamics of the block is effected with circular tensions around the legs somewhat independent of tensions shifting the hip center. :Notice that many people naturally begin swinging hips and shoulders in the :direction of the down block when you first teach them Heian Shodan. They must :be untrained before they can slide the hips sideways and block against the :"rotational tension" that occurs when you force the hips this way. The :natural inclination is toward strength. The rules of the kata are weakness. They also must be trained to execute sophisticated hip dynamics for their arm and leg techniques, independent or complementary to the movement of their center of mass! :Again, the emphasis here is pure fundamental action. Advanced students will :of course short cut all of these. Agreed. Lester ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ In response to: XX5 wrote: :Ok - let me wade into here and have a go at it as well. : : :#UPPER: (AGE):Not at all due to horizontal vs. vertical motion : :Partly right and partly wrong, imo. As I teach it, the rising block :trajectory is not a simple upwards movement of the arm, but has rather a :more circular path (somewhat distorted, but a slanted curved nonetheless). :Especially the initial contact point of the block (when used as a block, :other applications are a different thread) has the blocking arm moving :forward into the attacker. This forward push is supported by the advance :of the leading hip. The final part of the block is a circular rolling over :type of deflection that is supported by the rotation of the forearm and is :structurally stabilized by advancing the body center to be more "under" the :blocking arm than it would be if the hips remained square, i.e. it reduces :the cantilever problem. This of course is just one trajectory for the up-block. There are "punch-blocks" that have straighter trajectories, and other trajectories effective against other attacks can be generated simply by timing the turning of the wrist which effects the direction of the entire arm as it accepts the momentum being transferred from the torso. :#OUTSIDE - IN (SOTO): Complementary, increasing force, transferring more :#momentum. : :Sure, among other things. Yes, a point I tried to make as well. :#INSIDE - OUT (UCHI): Not at all (reverse action may weaken the motion) :#LOWER (GEDAN): Not at all (possible weakness. : :These two are actually the same in the method of their dynamics and share :the same concept space as knife-hand block. They can be done for power :(requiring direct hip rotation) and thus ending more square than slanted, :or they can be done by "slipping." This second form also uses the :advancing nature of the block and hip to "enter" (aikido terminology) the :opponent's technique. If you want a different analogy - with these two (or :3 if you include knife hand), you can pull the opponent with direct hip :action, or push the block into the opponent with reverse hip action. The :reverse hip requires better timing and must be started earlier because it :_is_ "weaker." It's advantage is that it is faster (not discounting the :setup for the following technique either, btw). The unbalancing (kuzushi :in judo terms) produced is in different directions for the 2 methods, and :you choose what you want to do (assuming you have the time and ability to :choose, of course). The third method of course is to simply generate a fast block while in motion which can be useful against most arm attacks, e.g., the use of the second and fourth knife-hand block in back-stance as I mentioned in my previous posting. :#...The others :#require a stack-up / fold / preparatory-action. : :That is only if you look at the "stack up" as only a preparatory action. :It is a technique in and of itself, i.e. the stack is a block and/or grip :escape, and the "block" is the counter (remember the pullback hand? Do :something with it during the stack up, and during the pullback...) Agreed. :.... :#Notice that many people naturally begin swinging hips and shoulders in the :#direction of the down block when you first teach them Heian Shodan. They must :#be untrained before they can slide the hips sideways and block against the :#"rotational tension" that occurs when you force the hips this way. The :#natural inclination is toward strength. The rules of the kata are weakness. : :Only if you have no idea of the bunkai. If you view the kata movement only :as single technique kihon, you are perfectly right - the reverse hip is :horribly WRONG. I disagree. A reverse-rotation or direct-rotation hip action is as much a part of the technique as is the use of the stance that provides the forces for the hip dynamics. Lester __________________________________________________________________ @@Kicking Form Keri No Kata #2000_03_07# Here is a kicking form generated out of the following correspondence: :I appreciate the kind request from XX1, :: Lester, is there anything you would like to recycle? I would like to hear :: your thoughts about shotokan karate training and how it needs to be, or can :: be, modified for the "more mature" person(like me).But anything would be :: fine. :that perhaps I could contribute an article before the grim reaper takes :possession of what remains of my wretched soul. I probably could come :with an article of the pros and cons of training into one's last twilight :years, but perhaps there may some juice left for a better contribution? : :I enjoyed the piece by XX2 on the kicking form/practice, in response :to XX3's lament about the lack of "kicking kata." Of course, we all :have practiced using and developing lots of kicking exercises, and so :this seems pretty reasonable. : :In my prime (before most of you were imagined), I was pretty much :acknowledged as a master of creating excellent combinations. I'd like :to take a shot at creating a nice "combination" of perhaps 20 steps. :I hesitate to pre-name it a "kata," not out of any false sense of :reverence, but because it may not fit in with the other themes represented :in the other 26 or so standard Shotokan/JKA kata. : :I will write up my "kicking form" in English. From my days in karate :in 1958, I refused to participate in what I (correctly or incorrectly) :perceived as disrespect for my teachers by talking to them in pig-English. :I just talked slowly in full sentences. In later years I refused to :participate in what I (correctly or incorrectly) perceived as disrespect :for my fellow American peers and students by running classes in Japanese :-- these were times of strong resentment when it was (correctly) assumed :that our Japanese instructors were reluctant to accept us as as being :at least as good as other upcoming Japanese instructors, e.g., with :regards to promotions, responsibilities and respect in developing our :own dojos, etc. Therefore, in classes and in my books, I used English. : :By now, I hardly remember the Japanese translations, so my contributions :will be in English. My apologies to present company, no apologies to :previous company. #2000_03_10# Several important refinements have been made on this form as a result of communication among a small world-wide private network of advanced karate people, the Shihan-Kai forum, particularly John "Genjumin" Versteeg. Keri No Kata, https://www.ingber.com/karate00_keri_no_kata.txt, is also on their webpage http://user.netomia.com/srsi/ #2000_03_11# Well, I generally share XXX's enthusiasm in this or any similar creative team activity. I would only add some cap on further exalting ourselves above previous artists. After all, pioneers in any discipline are just that -- pioneers -- and this often implies tearing at the walls of conservatism (a good thing, to "filter" out the noise of everyone that thinks they are a pioneer :>)), as well as getting ripped apart by the conservative establishment (a nuisance at best and death at worst). Let's give credit where credit is due. They would have been quite miserable teachers if we could not be led to improve on their own work! I would rather prefer to say that we appreciate the value of openness in the creative peer process -- putting it all out there for critique-- while our predecessors (in many disciplines) preferred to only give out remnants of their finished products, cheating us of learning more of the creative process itself. To be fair, I was quite surprised how Nishiyama and Nakayama in particular, in just a few years of my interactions with them, by the time I was an Instructor they reversed their pedantic stances, and showed this kind of openness to the creative process (of course, only up to the critical point :>)). If they, or some previous instructors had been raised in our time, I would like to think they too would have acted as we are now. ... I have added a format for interpretations as XXX suggests, within {...}. I have added just a couple of lines under Choice 2 for the staff interpretation. I like the idea of having a "standard" two-person form for regular practice as well a one-person "standard" form. It is possible we might want to develop "formlets" or "katalets" of relatively alternative combinations we could publish/update as commentaries on the main form/kata. A requirement would be that any such katalet be able to be presented as a viable two-person combination. Of course, let's first work to get this one in as good a shape as possible. ... Now, that's the spirit I really appreciate! Instead of criticizing an old system, it's so much better to do something superior that simply puts the old system in its perspective/place as pioneering but also inferior to the new new system! When I started creating two-person combinations circa 1970, with any sophistication beyond simple sparring exercises, they were very hard to develop. The analogy is learning chess well enough to do one move at a time, perhaps seeing ahead 1-1/2 moves. A master must be able to see ahead at least a couple of moves -- this is so hard for a computer but humans deal with this by developing patterns. This leads to the ability to think in "paragraphs" of the language, as I addressed in a previous email. While true single-person combinations of 8-12 techniques, with a 2-3 subpatterns are a big level above regular training exercises, two-person combinations with 2-3 subpatterns require an even bigger jump. It certainly requires that the developer have the absolute skill to perform all karate techniques as well as be highly skilled in timing, etc. Perhaps the hardest part was getting up the confidence to just dive in and trying to develop this kind of exercise. Then, it was daunting to see if students could actually learn them. I found that once my black belts learned to do a few, a class of brown and black belts (and sometimes some good green belts) could get into the frame of mind to every advanced training period learn and perform these two-person combinations, executed with speed and rhythm that embarrasses canned action on TV or movies. I would expect that the "greed" to milk this form dry, to include all techniques in every martial art and dance in recorded and hearsay history :>), will instead take the path offered by XXX: Hell, just put in the work to create new forms worthy of "kata." This will require a strict review board to give some critique, rejections or modifications, weight and integrity, to pass judgment and recommendations. ... I think a reasonable point of contention can be raised relative to the standard 26 kata. They of course have varying levels of "themes" and sophistication, but I think the point can be made that most of them (not all of them) have some kind of recurring theme they return to several times within the kata; many of the themes may involve repeated attacks against a (supposedly) retreating opponent, like 3 step-in-punches. The only case for a "recurring theme" in this form is perhaps a repeated tempo of intense back and forth combat, emphasizing kicks and leg control, at several levels of distance between opponents and from the floor, in flurries a bit longer than basic training exercises but not longer than most sparring or fighting matches? Lester #2000_03_12# (a) In other words, some of the 26 standard kata are relatively simple training exercises in stance and balance, while other have more interesting themes. In either case, note that there are relatively few different techniques in any given form. (b) The challenge/opportunity I saw with Keri No Kata, https://www.ingber.com/karate00_keri_no_kata.txt, was to have to a form that contained many different kicking and other leg techniques in a context of full sparring interactions, e.g., including a reasonable sprinkling of stances, hand techniques, and different kinds of timing and distance. I think there are definite tradeoffs between (a) and (b). I think both succeed to a large extent in what they were intended to offer. I think most of most kata in (a) suffer by not addressing some features of (b), but it might grate some people to call (b) a "kata" if (b) does not fall within the constraints offered by (a). I see no harm done whether (b) is called a "kata" or not, but I see value in better articulating a somewhat formal creative process that any excellent Instructor can follow to create forms for training on a regular basis. When I first formally published some two-person combinations in 1976 I said: TWO-PERSON COMBINATIONS. For advanced students, I have created two-person combinations to bridge the gap between combinations (the study of the interplay between the body and imagination) and the strategic interplay encountered in sparring. Because they are quite difficult to do, mistakes often occur. However, when both partners react correctly with each other, tremendous feedback pertaining to attention and physical techniques is available. So, perhaps two-person combinations and "official kata" serve different purposes, but I think both kinds of training are at the least mutually supportive. Or, perhaps (b) can be improved to have fewer themes to be considered in the context of (a)? I have altered Choice 2, adding more leg motions and sweeps, that enable A and B to move together in sparring synchrony even when moving slowly using these grappling techniques. This is the sense of some stick exercises I offered in my 1985 book: Water Sparring To give students conscious feedback on subtle sparring points, this tai chi type of exercise is performed by having opponents spar slowly, with all four hands sliding along and softly holding a stick about 30 inches long. The idea is to move to thrust or slice with the stick, but only with control of rhythm, not power. The center of the stick should move only at a constant smooth speed, e.g., a walking pace. Opponents should pay attention to project the force of their bodies through their hands, and not use only their arms or shoulder muscles. Although rarely will an attack ever be finished, as the defender can usually finally evade the coming thrust or slice, the battle becomes one of continuously trying to capture the leadership of their mutual rhythm. (1) Both partners begin by gently holding a stick between them. (2) One opponent begins with an attack, initiating a slicing technique, while the defender begins to circle-shift away. (3) The defender circle-shifts away from the attacker's technique, and (4) gaining control, attempts a thrusting attack from which the attacker shifts away as (5) both come back to their neutral positions. Water Sparring Applied to Knife Defense The movement practiced in the tai chi stick-sparring, can be used in practicing knife defense. (1) As the attacker attempts a slicing attack, (2) the defender circle-shifts away. (3) The defender sweeps down to grab the attacker's wrist while exerting torquing pressure on the elbow. (4) The defender twists the knife away from the attacker. (5) The defender then thrusts toward the disarmed attacker who (6) shifts away from the attack, being careful to keep contact with the knife hand. (7) The disarmed attacker shifts past the back of the lunging defender, and (8) both return to ready-positions. In Keri No Kata, https://www.ingber.com/karate00_keri_no_kata.txt, prodded by XXX, I saw an opportunity to practice slow smooth movements, which I consider an important part of training, with these large throwing movements, so I'm inclined to leave it the way it is, but adding the note below "*Slow Motion*"; the comments in curly brackets {...} already prompt auxiliary training to complete these techniques fast. __________________________________________________________________ @@Measuring Impact #2000_03_23# Under @@Control in Sparring is a plan to measure impact along with control. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ #1996_11_28# XX1 wrote: :Lester Ingber (ingber@ingber.com) wrote: :: I agree that XX2's point is most cases is more important than the use :: of breathing to enhance power. (I would think by now that there are :: many much more sophisticated instruments than my 1968 impactometer for :: measuring components of force -- mass, velocity, contact time during :: which momentum is being transferred to the target, etc.?) : :This raises a question that I have raised before under the general :heading of karate physics. What is the single most relevant physical :measurement for gauging the quality of a strike? : :The nominations are: :Peak Force :Impulse (force x time) or Momentum transfer :Work (force x distance) :Peak Pressure :Speed at impact :?other? : :I will volunteer the opinion that peak force is the most generally :useful quantity. Other ideas? I think that the the most useful quantity is target dependent. I agree that if the object is to break bone, then the peak force generated by the projectile/technique is very important, but even here this is not sufficient. The mass of the projectile on impact is as important, as this determines the momentum transfer into the target, as discussed in my texts and by you as well in previous writings. In other cases, like tearing of meat, energy deposition is more important than peak force. Thus, for a given force that can be generated, there are several tradeoffs to consider in which techniques to use for a given target, in addition of course to the usual tactical and strategic issues involved in sparring. For such reasons, I thought it reasonable to simply measure the three aspects of force during impact onto a given target: effective mass of the projectile during contact (1/2 width?) effective velocity of projectile during contact (1/2 width?) duration time of momentum (mass x velocity) transfer These measurements should be made for different masses and compositions of targets, as well as for different striking and thrusting techniques. Lester ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ #1996_11_30# XX1 wrote: :My experiences with kicking and punching have caused me to take :a dim view of momentum transfer. Big, strong, slow people who :push more than strike have *excellent* momentum transfer. They :can make the heavy bag swing like crazy, but when it's time to :break 3 measly boards things don't go so well: thud.......... :thud...........thud..... A slow massive projectile against a light target like boards might as well be a much lighter projectile (given the same velocity) as there will not be complete momentum transfer. Against a relatively light target, say lighter than most people's effective mass behind a "typical" punch, the important variable becomes speed on impact (during the focus of the technique, or while the board is soaking up the vibrations to break, etc.). However, against a massive torso as the target, mass is relatively more important. I've seen many shocked faces on attackers who kicked the torsos of opponents, only to fall back on their own butts when they bounced backwards, independent of whatever damage they may or may not have done to their opponents! Usually their kicking legs had little connectivity to their own torsos, and they usually had little stance behind their kicks as well. The same is true of course for similar poor punches against a much more massive object. The "optimal" mass during impact for a thrusting technique is on the order of the mass of the target, to effect maximal momentum transfer into the target. The optimal mass for a striking/snapping technique usually is the lightest mass possible, as those techniques _should_ be the result of several momenta transfers along joints to get the maximum velocity possible of the projectile at the time of impact. The time measuring impact/penetration into the target also varies according to the nature of the target, e.g., bone (perhaps measuring during peak force makes sense here) or meat (perhaps measuring during peak force makes sense here) or meat (perhaps measuring throughout the distance of penetration as energy is being deposited makes sense here). To some extent, this time also depends on the nature of the projectile, e.g., using a soft palm will more effective into meat than it will to create maximal breaking force against bone, etc. __________________________________________________________________ @@Physics Applications #1996_12_22# In reply to: :I would greatly appreciate it if Mr. Ingber would provide two examples :of strikes with weapons that qualify as momentum transfer and two that :qualify as pressure. Please describe the damage to the body, the :advantages and disadvantages, etc. Sorry, but I don't have time to prepare a full thesis here. The free texts in my archive give more information on the physics of karate techniques. Momentum transfer takes place when you walk with your arms swinging freely. While some weirdos may walk with their arms following the legs, most people find it natural for the arms to swing opposite to the their leg motions. This is a case of reverse-rotation forces, helping to keep balance in this case -- no damage done, and some momentum from the body is transferred to the arms. The body, being much heavier than the arms does not effect any near-complete momentum transfer under usual walking conditions. Of course, with more hip dynamics, reverse-rotation can become an important dynamic force for blocking, striking, punching, etc. As an example of momentum-transfer to a target, if you back-fist strike-snap to the face of an opponent, it is likely that the momentum-transfer will snap back his/her head, illustrating that momentum has been transferred from your fist to his/her head. I pick the strike-snap to illustrate this, as the focus generally is not deep into the target or at least does not follow the target, and so it is clear that the head is snapping back due to momentum transfer and not "pushing." Often there is damage incurred in the target, such as broken bone caused by extreme pressure at the point of contact. Momentum, force, pressure are not different variables as suggested by the question, but rather are related to each other. Impact force is often best described as the transfer of momentum divided by the short time momentum is being transferred. Pressure is the force divided by the area over which it is acting. Another variable, energy, is the one-half the square of the velocity times the mass. Momentum, velocity and force are "vectors," which means that you also must specify their direction (punching does no damage if it misses your opponent). "Pressure" really is more complicated, and should be included in a "stress tensor" which takes into account shearing as well as compression forces, any of which can cause damage depending on the nature of the target. If a thrusting technique happens to deposit all its energy into a target, then it may be possible to reasonably calculate the energy deposited into the target as one-half the square of the velocity of the projectile times its mass. For example, large impact forces can rip meat, and the damage done often can be measured by the energy deposited which would include the kinetic energy imparted to the parts of the meat, the heat generated, and the energy required to rip fibers, etc. Bone often is broken by large pressure waves. In the above example, if the striking hand were open instead of a fist, whereas there might have been enough pressure from a knuckle of the fist making contact with the face, it is likely that on impact the same force would be spread over a large enough area so that there would not be sufficient pressure to break bone, though the momentum transfer likely would be comparable to cause the head to snap back as well (allowing for some additional momentum not present that would have gone into the momentum of broken fragments of bone in the case of using a fist). The above gives some general description of the nature of momentum and pressure acting in a karate technique. Lester (Mr. Ingber) ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ #2020_12_07# In the context of a reply to a query on angular momentum: Yes, reverse rotation or direct rotation of the hip, can be accomplished by using stance to exert torques on either hip or the center of the hips; most training involves torques about the center of